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("Quid coniuratio est?")
JAMES NORMAN || WBAI RADIO || MAY 14, 1996
James Norman was featured on a "Hidden Agenda" broadcast, hosted by Gary Null, on WBAI Radio in New York City on May 14, 1996. The following is an abbreviated transcript of that interview:
Hi. I'm Gary Null and I'd like to welcome you to our program: today, continuing our series on "Hidden Agendas". This series is meant to explore some of the areas where we have been told an official version of events, and our own, in-depth investigation or those of the guests that I have on, shows that the official version should be challenged.
You are going to hear information today that you simply will not believe. However: after an enormous amount of effort to corroborate the evidence of James Norman, my guest, I can say that much of what he is about to say, at least I'm convinced, is true.
[Null next summarizes info from the previous, May 13th broadcast. See Conspiracy Nation, Vol. 7 Num. 98 for background.]
It almost makes your brain hurt to think about what's been going on here. But the essence of it is exactly as you say: we've been spying on foreign banks.
What happened was, when they were looking into these accounts, looking for terrorists supposedly, they also came across some major U.S. legislators: Senators, House members, who had enormous amounts of money. The question is: How did they get all this money in these bank accounts? Why this particular [Swiss] bank? And that gives us an idea why many of these individuals, as you'll hear in a few moments, have suddenly begun to retire in unprecedented numbers -- so they can "spend more time with their families". There's some big names involved: I mean major names.
Once these fellows [rogue CIA hackers] were able to get into these foreign banks and identify accounts belonging to government officials, satisfy themselves that it was dirty money, they, by obtaining the authorization codes off of these accounts (and given that they were numbered accounts and that there were no signatures required for withdrawal), they have been able to effect technically legitimate wire transfers of this money. And according to my sources, the money has been pulled back to some kind of holding account at the U.S. Treasury, escrowed for use by CIA or the intelligence community if and only if the CIA gets rid of a bunch of its own bad apples.
Vince Foster's account, which we mentioned on the earlier show... He was found to have $2.73 million in a Swiss account. That money was apparently taken out by this "Fifth Column" [rogue CIA hackers] group right at the time that Foster was scheduled to make one of these periodic, curious, one-day trips to Geneva that he was making.
Now the Sunday London Telegraph has reported about these curious trips. Based on the findings of a private investigator in Arkansas, whose credentials have been spoken of extremely highly, this guy was able to find private American Express records of Vince Foster that showed he had been making these periodic, one-day trips to Geneva every six or eight months. And on July 1, 1993, he bought round-trip travel to Geneva and back -- but he cancelled that trip! He didn't make the trip. I'm told it's because he learned, in the process of making that trip, that the money had been taken out of his account. He cancelled the trip. And subsequently, he bought $2400 worth of travel to somewhere. We don't know where. He never lived to make that trip.
His wife denies knowing anything about any of this.
This apparently is when he found out he was under some kind of surveillance. That began this curious chain of events in the final weeks of his life, including a meeting on the eastern shore of Maryland with Webster Hubbell and other people from the Clinton administration that, in retrospect, clearly seemed designed to convince Vince Foster to shut up, "cop a plea", don't implicate anybody else. Because there were other people in the White House who were directly threatened by this investigation. Including Hillary Clinton.
Hillary Clinton, at the Rose Law Firm, was an attorney-of-record for this company, Systematics: a bank data processing company, a front company for the National Security Agency, heavily involved in banking intelligence. And, as well, this company was, in effect, a "money laundromat" for covert funds that the intelligence community was moving around. It was sort of a well-known thing within the intelligence community that Systematics was, in effect, a "cyber-bank" for the intelligence community.
Hillary was the attorney-of-record for the "bank" in 1978 when Jackson Stephens, the Arkansas billionaire who owned the company 100 percent at that time, fronting for Arab interests, tried to take over, on behalf of what were BCCI [Bank of Credit and Commerce International] people, tried to take over this Washington bank holding company -- then-called Financial General Bankshares, now called First American. (That's the bank that ultimately did come under BCCI control, with Clark Clifford and Robert Altman.)
One of the stipulations Stephens had when he tried to make that acquisition was to bring in Systematics to do all the bank data processing for the multi-state holding company. The SEC [Securities and Exchange Commission] blocked that initial acquisition. Ultimately, we're told, Systematics did get involved with that bank after BCCI eventually was allowed to take control of it later on.
Hillary, we're told by Foster in an interview in the American Lawyer magazine in 1992, developed an entire practice at the Rose Law Firm in intellectual property law -- mainly from immersing herself in the affairs of this company, Systematics. Clearly, she had more than a passing acquaintance with this stuff. When you talk about intellectual property law, we're talking about software licensing and extremely sensitive stuff like that.
That raises a question: Could Hillary have been involved somehow in this espionage situation that Foster was being investigated for? Now I have no conclusive proof that Foster was guilty of espionage. All we know is that he was under investigation. He was under surveillance. What we do know is that his executive assistant, Deborah Gorham, testified under oath, in an interview by Senate investigators, that Foster had given her, shortly before his death, two, inch-thick ring binders of materials from the National Security Agency, which he had her put in Bernie Nussbaum's safe in the White House. Clearly, these were sensitive documents. And according to one Brookings Institution expert I talked to, and corroborated, one of these binders was indeed sensitive stuff and probably involved the codes and protocols by which the President would authenticate himself to the Pentagon in ordering military action. These are the kind of materials that Foster would have had no reason to have in the routine course of his duties as a Deputy White House Counsel. He did not have a high enough security clearance for them. He would not have had access to them. It would have required somebody that had access to the Oval Office or the Presidential living quarters to apparently even provide these things. What was he doing with these?? It's a question that has begged for an answer, or even to be asked in public in the official Washington hearings.
So that has helped to put, over the whole Vince Foster case, a shadow of National Security Interests which helps explain the rather bizarre cover-up behavior of people in the government, and in the news media in particular, in failing to pursue the real nature of that case.
What is becoming clear to me is that the political scandal here is so immense that the government just cannot come to grips with it.
Have I seen any of the hard documents on these Swiss bank accounts? No, I haven't. And it's extremely frustrating to me. I keep talking to these sources. I say, "At some point you've got to let this out." In fact, what I've been told is that they have been turning over this information to Kenneth Starr, probably under some kind of a grant of immunity.
There's a whole bunch of sensitivities here, questions: Could this stuff be used? Admissable as evidence? That's why there's been this basically extra-legal approach to the whole thing: get these people [e.g. crooked congressmen, etc.] out of office first, then eventually -- perhaps with a stronger Justice Department, willing to go after them -- they'll eventually be prosecuted.
It's a heck of a way to do business. But, again... [laughs] I couldn't have made up this story if I tried!
Do you think Hillary Clinton will be indicted?
Certainly if you "read the tea leaves" of what's been going on with the Starr, Senate, and House investigations, certainly it looks like indictments are rapidly approaching for the First Lady. Probably the first round would be on relatively minor obstruction of justice or banking-related infractions.
The scenario I have been told by people who are involved in the investigations is that there will be an initial round of these kind of charges. Probably there would be pardons available. But maybe next year sometime, there could be a second round of indictments that would involve much more sensitive crimes, crimes against the state, potentially, for which there may be no pardon available.
So the stakes here are extremely high. And we could end up with a situation much like Mexico right now, where their former-President Salinas is essentially a world wanderer, a man without a country right now, himself having been accused of being involved in maybe half-a-billion dollars worth of slush funds, stashed in CitiBank accounts in Switzerland.
There's a lot of good people in the government. And in many agencies, I think there's an attempt now to try and finally get justice. I think that for years and years, good people have had to basically put the kibosh on investigations that would have got too close to high political figures. Now I think a lot of this information is coming out. And I think there is a serious effort to clean up the corruption in our government, which unfortunately has become of a giant magnitude: from kickbacks, payola on illicit drug and arms transactions, and who knows what. And unfortunately, the money involved now is so much more than it ever has been in the past. There has always been corruption; there will always be corruption. But the dollars involved now have become so significant that they've tainted almost everybody, it looks like, at high levels. And it's made it impossible to clean up the system.
So that's why this "Fifth Column" group has resorted to this extra-legal approach. And I don't endorse it necessarily. But I have to say, "Hats off" to 'em. It looks like it's being dramatically effective.
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If you would like to know more about this explosive story, CN recommends the Orlin Grabbe material, currently archived at ftp ftp.shout.net in subdirectory pub/users/bigred/og -- or use the http address, http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html to read it.
I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation."
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See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html
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